Can music rebuild my brain?

Full Transcript

Announcer: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind from

Robert Lamb: Hey. Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. I'm Robert Lamb.

Julie Douglas: I'm Julie Douglas.

Robert Lamb: And as our wonderful theme music fades into the background there, tell me Julie, how does that music make you feel? What comes to mind?

Julie Douglas: I gotta tell you there's that sort of thumping [noise] that really kinda makes me feel a little boot busting.

Robert Lamb: Yeah?

Julie Douglas: Yeah.

Robert Lamb: Yeah, it kinda makes my head nod a little. It has kind of a - kind of an IDM intelligent dance music kind of sound to it too. It makes me sort of think of a dark Alice in Wonderland type forest, and there's just all sorts of weird things going on in the darkness; maybe flashing, little points of light and there's something really amazing going on in the darkness. And you're just kind of wondering, "Oh my goodness, what's going on out there?"

Julie Douglas: Whoa. All I'm talking about is [inaudible] shaking and you've fallen down the rabbit hole. I like that.

Robert Lamb: Oh, then another Lewis Carroll reference there. Yeah, well, that's the good thing about music is it's - and this is kind of an overstatement of the obvious here, but it has a profound and varying effect on the listener, right?.

Julie Douglas: Yeah, absolutely. Do you have any earworms or are there any instances that you feel like with music that really sort of grabbed you by the shirttails?

Robert Lamb: I listen to music pretty constantly at work. I don't think I'd get any work done or be able to commute properly if I didn't have music going. And I've also found that when it comes to earworms, I will definitely get some annoying earworms here and there, but most the earworms I get are more just the music and not the lyrics. Even - I think an earworm that a lot of people may suffer from is that Lady Gaga song, the - what is it? The rah, rah, rah song.

Julie Douglas: I don't know. Yeah, I refuse to let it into my brain. I'm sorry.

Robert Lamb: Okay, well, you're fortunate thus far. I kind of like part of the song, but the rest of it just kind of slams into your head and won't let go and then you're just trying to shake it out.

Julie Douglas: Yeah, see that's the problem with earworms. Yeah, for me, I've got a couple. One that's just a benevolent earworm right now is Ole Tarantula by Robyn Hitchcock. So sometimes I'll wake up in the morning and I can hear the harmonica and it's nice. And then -

Robert Lamb: Yeah, that's a good earworm. Most of my worms, I feel are good.

Julie Douglas: Okay, so you're lucky because I've got one that's - I've had for like a decade and I can't shake. And it usually happens at 3:00 in the morning. I can't go to sleep and all of a sudden, I can hear the piano going [noises] it's a hard knock life. And I - "No." There's something about that song and it's the lyrics. So it's interesting that for you, it's not necessarily lyrics that are haunting you, but that's what music is for me: it's both the destroyer and the creator.

Robert Lamb: It's also a huge energizer. I think it's interesting how - somebody just pointed out that the slower music, your sad music, your more relaxing music tends to be a lot slower, a slower beat going on. And then the faster music has some sort of really rockcious beat to it. That's what gets you pumped up. If you - I don't know if you've ever done this; if you've ever put on Eye of the Tiger.

Julie Douglas: Oh yeah, this morning.

Robert Lamb: Oh, you did? Yeah.

Julie Douglas: Yeah.

Robert Lamb: Yeah. Sometimes, that's what you need to get out of the house or to really throw yourself at a project.

Julie Douglas: Yeah. Yeah, I do that right before I scale the steps, the 800 steps near my local park.

Robert Lamb: Oh, excellent.

Julie Douglas: Yeah.

Robert Lamb: Well, cool. Then you're in the fighting spirit.

Julie Douglas: Right. I get it. The adrenaline is pumping.

Robert Lamb: Yeah. I also have this theory that nobody can listen to Staying Alive without altering the way they walk.

Julie Douglas: But that's a good thing.

Robert Lamb: That's a - I think it's a good thing. It's a great song.

Julie Douglas: I think we should always walk like we're listening to that. Think about how that would change the world.

Robert Lamb: Imagine if soldiers and people in ROTC if they had to march to Staying Alive. It would be an entirely different scene.

Julie Douglas: That's right. There would be no wars.

Robert Lamb: Yeah, it would just be people's style and looking good.

Julie Douglas: See, that's a good example of how music can change your brain.

Robert Lamb: Yeah and when we say change you're the brain, it's really amazing what it can do, and what it does do to all of us everyday.

Julie Douglas: But first, what do you think music is? What is it to you; bare bones?

Robert Lamb: Yeah, well, I was thinking about it and I kept coming up with kind of elaborate answers, but I actually have to just sort of refer to Webster's on this one because the Webster's is a very - it's not very creative, but it's - the Webster's -

Julie Douglas: When in doubt, go to Webster's.

Robert Lamb: Their definition is pretty succinct. And it just says, "The science or art of ordering tones or sounds in succession in combination and in temporal relationships to produce a composition having unity and continuity." So it's a series of sounds that make some sort of sense, that have almost a kind of a narrative flow to them even though there are no characters in a song unless you're going with some sort of Peter and the Wolf type of motif.

Julie Douglas: Yeah okay, so you have to have rhythm, tone, meter, what else? Sometimes instruments, a melody.

Robert Lamb: A melody, a little air horn dropped in here and there just for -

Julie Douglas: Sure, kazoo.

Robert Lamb: Kazoo; yeah.

Julie Douglas: I didn't just sneeze. So I think that's the really cool thing about music is that it can really be anything across cultures too.

Robert Lamb: Yeah, it's a deep part of our cognitive architecture too, as we discussed previously when we were talking about what alien - how aliens would interpret human culture and what really stands out about who we are. Music is a huge part of who we are. And it change - it has the power to change our mood, heighten our emotions.

Julie Douglas: Well, and the thing though that should be noted is that we're not entirely sure how music affects our brains. We're just now getting some data from what, the last ten years?

Robert Lamb: Yeah, five to ten. It's pretty much - continues to be an emerging area of study.

Julie Douglas: Yeah, this is a pretty explosive area to look into or explosive field right now. And you've got cognitive psychologist and linguist, Steven Pinker who - he's just - he's sort of the - I don't know. I guess you would say he's the party pooper on this. He thinks that music is just auditory cheesecake and it's basically like an accident of evolution like, "Hey guess what? You get to talk and sing."

Robert Lamb: Yeah. He - at least he's not a complete villain about it. And he's kind of like, "I understand wanting to make more out of music than it is, but I don't." That's his whole argument.

Julie Douglas: Right. And then you have other people on the other side of the coin. They're like - they're saying, "We've gotta make more out of this because of the findings." So I think it's interesting to dive into that and look at the findings and find out how our brains work on music, and specifically, when we're listening to music, what's happening inside of our brains?

Robert Lamb: Right. Just to put things in perspective, a lot of times people wonder, "Is music - is it this thing unto itself, or is it just the flipside of language?" But there are parts of the brain that respond to music that don't respond to language. And there are separate parts of the brain that respond to the melody of language that are different from the parts of the brain that respond to music. So it's not just - it's clearly doing unique things to our mind.

Julie Douglas: Yeah. If you look at a brain scan, you can see that it's lighting up like a pinball machine. Or, as someone had said before in some of the literature I was reading that it almost looks like a symphony. There are different parts of the symphony that are cuing up and working in concert.

Robert Lamb: Yeah. And what they're looking at tends to be blood flow, oxygen flow in the brain; those are the indicators to show that there's something, that there's definite neural activity going on. And I think we've all seen these brain - if you haven't seen it in a movie, you've seen it on at least channel flipping through your different documentary channels.

Julie Douglas: Yeah. And it's pretty fascinating when you do see the brain lighting up like that because you get to see where the music entering the ear and when it's going into the frontal and temporal lobes and then into the language processing areas. And then the visual cortex lights up. And that's actually really interesting because that's your brain kinda trying to get a visual bead on the changes in pitch and tone. So it's looking at it in a visual way; it's perceiving that as movement.

Robert Lamb: Okay, so kind of like when I see the dark forest with the lights in it?

Julie Douglas: Exactly.

Robert Lamb: So that's what's happening?

Julie Douglas: Yeah.

Robert Lamb: Okay.

Julie Douglas: You're already sort of imagining yourself in movement, which is really interesting when you're thinking about music. And then, you've got your medial front cortex and that's where if you've heard that song before, you get all weepy or you get sad.

Robert Lamb: Oh, okay. So this is - for an example, if I listen to a particularly sad song during a really depressing episode in my life and I tear up listening to it again or get kinda weird about it if I listen to it again, that's what's going on?

Julie Douglas: Right.

Robert Lamb: Okay.

Julie Douglas: Or if you're sitting there listening to Nick Drake and it's raining outside or something along those lines, but if you're listening to something that makes you happy, then your brain starts releasing dopamine. Yeah, so you've got the reward center occupied as well, which is pretty cool. And, one of the things I think is most interesting is that sometimes your neural firing synchronizes to the fundamental frequency of that sound that you're picking up.

Robert Lamb: Wow. So you would be able to look at a live scan of the brain and it would essentially be like the visualizer on Windows Media Player?

Julie Douglas: Right. Yeah, you'd have these neural firings that are like [noises] or something along those lines.

Robert Lamb: Oh wow.

Julie Douglas: Maybe. Maybe you wouldn't, but some might.

Robert Lamb: But an eccentric millionaire could hire a dude to remain hooked up to a brain scanner and he could just set the - and I could be his visualizer.

Julie Douglas: That's right.

Robert Lamb: I like that.

Julie Douglas: If he was gonna take it to that other level of entertainment, yeah; absolutely. Hum. I see what you're going to be doing with your first million. But all of this is pointing to the fact that like you said, there's a lot going on in the brain. There's parts that are lighting up. You've got blood flow; you've got oxygen. And what we're beginning to see is that music is tripping all sorts of switches in our brain and possibly even making us smarter if we engage in certain ways with it. And I think you see that actually with musicians.

Robert Lamb: Yeah, there have been some really cool studies into just how musicians' brains appear to work versus non-musician brains. They've done some - there have even been some studies where they take a non-musician, give him a year of musical lessons, singing lessons, what have you and then they can see the changes in the neural activity.

Julie Douglas: Right. And this - they could be a terrible singer, right?

Robert Lamb: Right, yeah, but it's just the -

Julie Douglas: But the fact that they're exercising this part of the brain means that they've built up some more muscle there so to speak.

Robert Lamb: Yeah, it's really made me rethink - I don't know - I really don't know how musically inclined you are. I - in terms of instruments because I took piano lessons; I took a recorder lesson; I was in band for trumpet and French horn; played none of these things well at all. I was pretty inept at times, especially with the piano, I feel, but I've had to rethink it because I'm thinking even though I didn't excel at those things, it got my brain thinking in a musical way, and maybe that benefited me in the long run.

Julie Douglas: Right, and in other ways that you might have not even known.

Robert Lamb: Right.

Julie Douglas: Hum. Well, I'm not really musically inclined. In college, I took my grandfather's saxophone - it was a 1939 saxophone; it was awesome - and had it restored and took lessons and I was terrible. And I would try to bend the notes and my music teacher would get really angry and just say, "Please just learn t he notes and do it well." And I thought, "Well, surely after six months, I can sound like Coaltrain, right?" But that didn't work out, so I got discouraged. Yeah, like you, I'm rethinking it. I'm thinking, "Okay, even if I'm terrible at it, maybe this can help me to have a thicker cortex like other musicians," which just basically means that you've got a lot more activity going on in your frontal cortex and the areas of your brain that are responsible for language and planning. And, this is another cool thing about musicians: they're better at picking out selective patterns in a room where there's - there might be a cacophony of sound. So they kind of have better selective hearing if you will.

Robert Lamb: So if you needed someone to spy on somebody in a busy room -

Julie Douglas: Yes.

Robert Lamb: - hire the spy that has a musical background.

Julie Douglas: See, that's why I was thinking I should continue with saxophone lessons because -

Robert Lamb: You never know when you're gonna have to switch over full-time to that spying career.

Julie Douglas: Right. It's just a good thing to have in your back pocket.

Robert Lamb: Yeah, nobody wants to hear, "I'm sorry, but I'm gonna go with the bassoon player."

Julie Douglas: No, it's true. But the other thing that all of this is pointing to is of course music and children.

Robert Lamb: Right.

Julie Douglas: And the fact that children who study and learn music aren't just increasing their motor skills, but they're scoring higher on language tests and they show an overall improved processing in linguistic centers of the brain. So you have to be engaging in the music of course. You can't just be a passive listener, but that also makes me think of the Mozart effect.

Robert Lamb: Oh, okay. This is where you play Mozart for an unborn child?

Julie Douglas: Well, this is what - yeah, this was the result of a study. That's actually the interpretation from the results, but the result is that basically - college students who underwent this study - that when they listened to Mozart, that for some temporal special testing that they actually increased their scores, but it was temporary.

Robert Lamb: And they were bored.

Julie Douglas: And they were bored and they were constructing things out of paper. So that was essentially the test, but people took that and they ran with it. And Governor Zell Miller of Georgia had mandated that every child born would get a Mozart CD. And so it wasn't quite that. And I think that's the interesting thing to point out, that it's not just listening to music; it's engaging in it that really helps benefit the brain and builds it up quite a bit more.

Robert Lamb: Right, thinking musically.

Julie Douglas: Yeah, exactly. And the most extreme case of this is probably in some ailments that occur in the brain: [inaudible], Parkinson's disease; along those lines.

Robert Lamb: Right, they're able to actually use the music to repair damage; to rebuild the brain in a certain sense.

Julie Douglas: Yeah, in a way. Parkinson's: of course your motor system is gonna be tripped up with that, and so music kinda helps the auditory system and the motor system be in concert with each other. So if you've got a Parkinson's patient and you put on a rhythm track; that actually helps that person to better coordinate their movements. So again, think about the neurons firing to a certain beat.

Robert Lamb: Or playing Staying Alive and everybody ends up kinda strutting instead of just walking, okay.

Julie Douglas: Right. Yeah, so during physical therapy you just have to imagine that you're in the movie walking down the street; you're staying alive.

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Robert Lamb: I have to admit, whenever I go to a concert or a big DJ event and the crowd is really into it, I can't help but think of old Viking movies where there's the guy on the back of the Viking ship, the Viking long boat beating on the drum and everyone's moving in tandem with the drummer because that's how it feels. It's like one guy or one band or the DJ or whoever: it's like they're controlling everyone and everyone is just synchronized with this beat.

Julie Douglas: Yeah. And actually, people who talk about the auditory cheesecake, they actually point to that experience that you're talking about and say that music is actually a way to bring people together. It does have an evolutionary purpose in that if you can get everybody's neurons synchronized in a group, then you can form some sort of basis of cooperation for a community.

Robert Lamb: Okay. Well, that's instantly - and part of this is because I'm re-reading Name of the Rose. I can't help but think of a monastic community and the importance of music.

Julie Douglas: Yeah, absolutely.

Robert Lamb: And I imagine any church groups, etc or even the military, I guess come to think of it with the sort of things that - those little songs that they chant while they're marching.

Julie Douglas: My mamma said to [noises].

Robert Lamb: Yeah.

Julie Douglas: Something like that?

Robert Lamb: Yeah, that one; that classic ballad. Yeah, it's like a community building thing. They're all sort of synching up and becoming one body under the music.

Julie Douglas: Yeah. So there - like I said, there are people who will point to that and say there is a purpose. There is a reason why all of us have this - what they think innate ability to understand music and to incorporate it in our lives.

And if you look at the importance of music, especially with memory - we were talking about that a little bit earlier with the medial front cortex - that that's where all your memories are stored: they're finding that Alzheimer's patients and dementia patients are responding really well to musical therapy because when they hear pieces of music, it actually helps them to sort of unlock the box, crack it open, access their memories again and actually helping them to increase their short term and long term memory, which is really cool.

Robert Lamb: Oh yes.

Julie Douglas: Yeah. And then you've got stroke victims who they may be able to understand what you're saying, but they can't - the use of language is gone. They can't express themselves. And they've been singing in some studies what they're trying to say; phrases. In some cases, they can sing 200, 300 phrases on a sort of road to recovery and being able to eventually speak again. Yeah, so music is definitely -

Robert Lamb: Now are they singing what they wanna say or are they singing things from -?

Julie Douglas: Yeah.

Robert Lamb: Okay.

Julie Douglas: Yeah, actually, there's a documentary called The Music Intuition and they show a woman who is going through therapy and the woman that's working with her says, "Okay, now suppose that your two-year-old daughter is about to run down the street. What do you say?" And she sings, "Wait for me," but she could never say, "Wait for me." So she's regaining that ability through music.

Robert Lamb: It's interesting because we were actually talking the other day about how it might be a little difficult if we were to do a mus ical episode of the podcast, but for someone who's having to reclaim their speech, music is the inroad to speaking again. That's interesting.

Julie Douglas: Yeah, and so that's again, where the mystery is sort of coming in because again, this is a fairly new field of study. Ten years ago people didn't necessarily know that music could access your brain in these ways. And I'm also thinking about another therapy session. This was done by neuroscientist, David Soto. He had 60 stroke victims who sustained damage to the parietal cortex, which is related to visual and special processing and it was very unusual in that the victims lost half of their special awareness. And some of them would eat food on only one side of their mouth or they would shave only one side of their face.

Robert Lamb: Wow.

Julie Douglas: Yeah. So their perception's way off. So what happened is when Soto played music that made them happy during their therapy, they were actually able to increase their abilities and be able to perceive more. And the interesting thing about this is that they played a couple different pieces of music, but the ones that were most popular were Frank Sinatra and Kenny Rogers. And guess of the two who had the better results with the victims?

Robert Lamb: I'm thinking Frank probably took more of a firm hand with them.

Julie Douglas: Okay, I would think so too. Fly me to the Moon: very uplifting. Kenny Rogers.

Robert Lamb: Oh, please tell me it was early Kenny Rogers at least.

Julie Douglas: I don't know.

Robert Lamb: The Fifth Edition. Was it Fifth Edition?

Julie Douglas: That's in the land of Lady Gaga for me; sorry.

Robert Lamb: You know who just stepped in to see what condition my condition was in?

Julie Douglas: Oh yes, okay. I do know that one. Oh boy.

Robert Lamb: Yeah, that's like his best track.

Julie Douglas: I bet that probably is the one that -

Robert Lamb: I would hope so.

Julie Douglas: Yeah. We hope. But that - they thought about actually renaming it: the Kenny Rogers Effect; no joke. I'm not kidding. But that kinda points to the fact that when you are happy when you're listening to music, that you've got the release of dopamines and that when you have the release of dopamines that you've actually got more neural resources. So that's what they're seeing there with the stroke victims is that it was actually allowing them to perform a skill set that they didn't necessarily have before.

Robert Lamb: Well, it's interesting: there have also been some studies into how music can be used for people suffering from chronic heart disease. And the results are not set in stone on this one, but they've - but scientists have found that in a study that had about 1400 participants, they found that it had a moderate effect on anxiety in patients with CHD, chronic heart disease, but the results were kinda inconsistent across the studies, but that listening to music reduces heart rate, respiratory rate and blood pressure. In other words, a calming effect on the body, which can be very medicinal given certain conditions such as chronic heart disease.

And then I've also - I also saw a few studies talking about its use in treating depression or anxiety and again, a part of it comes down to if anybody's ever meditated to music or used music as a relaxation tool, obviously knows the relaxing effects of music, but that very effect can have a clinical use as well.

They've also found that in some therapies it's kinda like music is a universal language to sort of use kind of a cliché term there, but if you have a person who's not very receptive to therapy and maybe not that receptive to just one-on-one verbal communication, music can kinda break down doors. It's something they can instantly get and it's less threatening to them. So that's one of the benefits that experts have found with music therapy.

Julie Douglas: On the opposite side of the coin, I just have to mention that I ran across this study of mice and meth. I wish that were the title of it, but it actually wasn't - of mice and meth that they took these mice and they put them on meth and then they gave some of them a quiet space and some of them they just blasted really loud music and they wanted to see if the toxicity levels would rise with the really loud music.

Robert Lamb: That's a very particular study.

Julie Douglas: Well, what they were trying to do is say that if you're on meth and you're at a nightclub that it can actually be much more dangerous to you. This is the - what they posit because it enhances the toxic effects of meth, the loud music. And I thought, "Wow, that's so disturbing." And poor mice; I've got to say that we need to start cataloging all of the little indignities that they have to suffer in the name of science.

Robert Lamb: Yeah. Also, we can figure out our drug habits with the culture.

Julie Douglas: Yeah. So like I said, on the flipside there, yes, like you said, it can be very healing, but music is powerful in the sense that it could illuminate other areas of your brain. I shouldn't say illuminate. I should say enhance those parts of your brain if you happen to be on meth and you are a mouse.

Robert Lamb: So you mice out there.

Julie Douglas: Quick little diversion there. So I think what all of this is pointing to is that we have something called neuroplasticity.

Robert Lamb: Okay. And this just means that the brain is not set in stone; that our neural architecture can change, right?

Julie Douglas: Yeah. This is the really incredible message of all of this is that if you can help someone who has Parkinson's get back on the road to therapy with music because it's stimulating parts of their brain that they didn't know it could stimulate before, what can it do to our own brains; what can we, going forward, learn from this?

Robert Lamb: Yeah, and just also the message too that when you're listening to music it's - we tend to sort of think - music's something - I listen to it in the background or it's playing in the car, or I turn it on to just chill out or rock out in the afternoon or whatever; however you view it, but something really deeper is going on. It's kind of like - you're sort of recharging your mind, rewriting your mind even depending on what you're listening to and how you listen to it.

Julie Douglas: Right. Your emotions are being provoked and you may not even know it. You might be in the elevator listening to elevator music. So music is manipulation too in that sense. And we're in the day and age where we're surrounded by it. And I actually - thankfully for me, I feel like we're in a day and age where we have access to so much music. At the same time, it is - it's ubiquitous.

Robert Lamb: Yeah, it is everywhere and it's just - there's so much great music out there and one of the - I think the good things about the internet is that yeah, you can explore so much whereas when I was in high school, I had the worst musical taste because I had so little to pull from.

Julie Douglas: Right. Yeah, and this is interesting too; I found this out: that perfect pitch in western cultures, 14 percent of the population is represented, which is minuscule. People who have perfect pitch, but in Asian cultures it's actually 70 percent.

Robert Lamb: Wow.

Julie Douglas: Yeah. And there's one theorist who comes at it by saying that those languages are microtonal. And in fact, think about it this way: have you ever heard Chinese opera?

Robert Lamb: Yes.

Julie Douglas: Okay. Probably the first time you heard it, did it seem sort of jarring and maybe even off key?

Robert Lamb: I would say - no offense to people who love it, but every time I've heard it, it sounds jarring and off key.

Julie Douglas: Okay. So - and I think that's because we're all creating these neural pathways and neural systems of understanding of music. And so what you're exposed to as a westerner is probably what your preference is going to be. And so if you as an Asian have a microtonal language, then what that's basically doing for you is giving you a more nuanced understanding of pitch, tone, melody, rhythm. And so the idea is that that puts you in a lot better position to be able to have perfect pitch and detect it, which is another very cool crossroads, I think, of language and music, and something that we have to reconsider how music works with language in its own right.

Robert Lamb: Huh, interesting.

Julie Douglas: Yeah. So that was sort of exciting to me.

Robert Lamb: Yeah. I do have to stress I do like a lot of Asian music; just not Chinese court orchestra type stuff.

Julie Douglas: Well, sure yeah, but I get it. It's not first on my play list.

Robert Lamb: Yeah, it's all a little jarring. So if you wanna know more about these topics go to the website and check out "Is There a Link between Music and Happiness" by Molly Edmonds. And if you happen to hit the video store, if you're turning into PBS or you just use Netflix, especially Netflix Streaming, you can watch the documentary, The Music Instinct: Science and Song. It is a fascinating two hours. And it really hits - it's like - some of the stuff we've talked about, but then a whole other area too.

Julie Douglas: Yeah, Bobby McFerrin is I guess you would say sort of the host of it.

Robert Lamb: Yeah. He's at least a co-host in it and they get pretty heavy into the neurological implications of music and what it says, what it might say in the future; really good show. Check it out.

Julie Douglas: Yep, and Music and Space.

Robert Lamb: And Music and Space; yeah.

Julie Douglas: So if you've got an earworm that you would like to let us know about, we wanna hear about it.

Robert Lamb: Yeah, and I'm interested to know if anybody else out there has the situation where most of their earworms are non-lyrical because I haven't really - I don't know if I've met anybody else that has that; not that I'm patting myself on the back for being strange or anything, but I just feel like other people -

Julie Douglas: He just patted himself on the back.

Robert Lamb: But some other people have to have that too, right?

Julie Douglas: Yeah, absolutely. Well, let us know.

Robert Lamb: You can e-mail us at and you can also find us on Facebook and Twitter or you can also find us as Blow the Mind. Thanks for listening.

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